Rev. Tony Lee, Senior Pastor of the Community of Hope AME Church

The first interviewee in our New Black Leadership Series could not have been a better first choice. Rev. Anthony “Tony” Lee is the new Senior Pastor of the newly founded Community of Hope AME Church in Temple Hills, MD, and he’s doing it way big for God and the local black community. Certainly able to wear the boots of a pastor, Rev. Lee carries years of experience working with the youth and young adults in the DC Metro area. His style in ministry is bold and fearless, and God has anointed this man with the ability to connect with this generation at a level in which they can relate. What is his motive? To freely give as it was given unto him – the hope of change and the knowledge to manifest it.

“God changes you so you can be a change agent. I figure if God can change me from what I was, then God can sure change communities. God can sure transform folks’ lives. So that’s kind of how I see myself being used – as an agent of transformation, but it’s mainly just out of what I perceive Christianity to be.”

Rev. Tony Lee

UKM: What is your definition of leadership?

RTL: My definition of leadership is the ability to guide people to where they’ve never been. It needs to be a selfless ability to steer people, guide people to a place they may not have even seen yet, or may have heard about, but don’t believe that they can go to.

UKM: What is your perspective on the state of African Americans today, particularly the youth and young adults?

RTL: I’m hopeful about youth and young adults in America. I think we’re going through a transitional period. We’re in the period of the changing of the guard. And what I mean by that is many people from the Civil Rights generation are now older and you’re starting to see the major Civil Rights icons passing. We’ve seen the passing of Rosa Parks, we’ve seen the passing of C. Delores Tucker, [and] we’ve seen the passing of Coretta Scott King - people who have paved the way. We see a lot of other major Civil Rights leaders, leaders of that era, who will let you know they’re older now. They’re step has slowed a little bit. They’re in the position of sharing the wisdom. And now we’re at a period in time in which we’re watching a new generation feel the call of leadership. If you look at the state we’re in, we’re in a bad state, if you look at our communities, but I still think it’s a hopeful state. And I think a lot of that hope really lay in Hip Hop. A good example is Hurricane Katrina. When Katrina hit, horrible situation, but some of the first people on the ground were Hip Hop. Cats were on the ground, whether it was Jeff Johnson [BET’s Cousin Jeff], or whether it was David Banner. So, I believe that we’re in the midst of a transition and the Hip Hop generation, that age range, is about ready to say okay, we’ve partied, we’ve shook a whole bunch of butts, but now we’ve got kids, you know, we’ve got families. Now we’re looking at what’s going to be our legacy. And I believe that when you just look around there are a lot of folks doing a lot of good stuff, moving to another level - in the way that we do it, with the flow that we do it.

UKM: Going back to Katrina, the hurricane and its aftermath seem to have been a wake up call to Black America saying listen, racism is still very much alive, don’t get too comfortable. What are your thoughts?

RTL: I think that every generation has its moment that shapes how that generation looks at the world. So, say in previous generations it could have been the killing of King; it could have been the killing of Malcolm; it could have been the killing of Kennedy that helped shape that generation. The Vietnam War, that helped shape people’s generation. The Civil Rights Movement helped shape how that generation looked at people. The bombing of the church, that made folks feel like hold up, enough is enough. It just fuses the consciousness of that time. Even though folks knew back then that segregation was rough, even though they knew that lynching was real – it was looking at Emmett Till’s beaten and bruised and tore up body that caused that generation to say okay, no, enough is a enough. Even though they knew it was rough, it took something like that for that whole generation to say okay, now we’ve got to really mobilize. I think Katrina in a lot of ways did that for us. It caused us to have a moment, a total moment. For our age range, something clicked. So, many of the organizations you saw down there, [such as] Saving Our Selves [S.O.S. Coalition] ended up giving out over three hundred tons of food. Those were young adults. Those were folks my age and younger, for whom it clicked, and they said we’ve got to forget what our job is right now and just start building and start making it happen. It gave us a sense of urgency, a sense of ‘oh my God, if we don’t do this thing, nothing is going to happen,’ and so that was significant. I think the other thing that happened with Katrina was that the church showed up well for Katrina in some senses, but poorly in others. Conventional churches showed up well, but these media churches, the places that get all this national attention, but they didn’t use their national platform to do anything. They showed up well by sending trucks [down], but they didn’t speak out against the evil. The platform that was the most prophetic during Katrina was Hip Hop. Kanye West was the prophet! You had preachers with great platforms, but none of them used it. Kanye West stood in front of the world and said that [George] Bush doesn’t like black people . . . Right? But, the charge for the church is, what does it mean for Kanye to be more prophetic than the church? So you saw Hip Hop speaking out against the injustice at a level and platform that the church in some ways has. I’m not knocking them. The church worked hard. Regular everyday people, church people, they worked. So the church showed up real good at that level, but what I’m talking about is this little rock star kind of atmosphere we’ve kind of gone to now, that [church] didn’t show up. But, we did have some church folk doing great work. I just think that’s where Hip Hop, in this generation, was more prophetic. I think this generation stepped up at a level that spoke out against the evil in a louder voice than some leaders who had much bigger platforms. I think that our generation, we utilized what platforms we had, and those platforms were Hip Hop.

UKM: Church vs. State, how do we take political action and take spiritual action?

RTL: We have to follow the law of Jesus. Jesus and everything he did was a socio-political statement. When Jesus came and associated with women, he was making a socio-political statement. That’s the reason Jesus was killed. Jesus wasn’t killed because he healed; he was killed because of politics. He was killed because he went up in the churches, which was state-sanctioned religion at the time, and overturned the tables. Jesus was killed because he was messing with folks’ bottom line. And who was he killed by? The state! His crucifixion was sanctioned by the Roman Empire. So, I believe the church just has to be about the ministry of Jesus. The church has to be about doing what the church does, “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof,” [from The Holy Bible, the Book of Psalms, 24:1]. The state impacts the daily living of folk; the church has to impact the life of folks. I mean, if you look at most of our major movements in this nation, at any kind of change, they’ve been led by people of faith. If you go back to Garvey and Nat Turner – if you look at the Civil Rights movement, people of faith were saying no to injustice. See, the challenge is when the church is not standing up against injustice; it becomes simplistic in state-sanctioned oppression. And so when the church sits back and watches the state oppress people and take policy that is oppressive to people – I mean, let’s be real, if I know (pausing) that right now, a determining factor of whether or not you’re going to go to jail is your level of education, but I cut educational funding in head start, and I know that young people who go to head start and receive early child hood education, they are more advantaged educationally, then I understand very clearly that, what? If I’m setting up your education to be second rate, then I’m setting up your prisons to be first class. Therefore, as the church, I have to be able to say, hold on, something is wrong with that. And so therefore, there’s no way I can keep silent about the educational system. There’s no way I can keep silent about the No Child Left Behind mess. It’s hard for me to keep silent if I’m faithful to God’s call, because I can see the setup. And so then it’s my job to say something.

UKM: I believe that God is about a radical movement. Now more than ever He is seeking people to go out on the front line and take back the Kingdom on earth. With respect to the current state of blacks in America, how does the church take on this boldness, the boldness of Jesus, stepping out of what’s been tradition – take God out of our comfortable boxes?

RTL: The church just has to be the church. And there are churches doing it. I don’t want it to be painted as if I’m saying no churches are doing it. Like I said, there is a transition in leadership. The new generation needs to use its youth and its energy for the task at hand. The other piece is, I think in many ways the church just has to do what the church was built to do, which is building the Kingdom of God. Not just perpetuating the status quo. It’s about speaking truth to power, it’s about looking at injustice and speaking truth to justice – and that’s what needs to happen. I think this generation’s church has to become, in its prophetic nature, more strategic in its planning. If you look at the Civil Rights Movement, those folks were great strategists. They planned their work and they worked their plan. If you look at Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP back in those days, they were winning small court cases because they understood that ten years later someone would win the big one.

UKM: The Hip Hop culture has a lot of influence on this generation. Many of the messages portrayed in the music, accompanied by the images, especially of women, are negative and self-destructive. How do you, as a leader, get up from prayer and fight back against that state of mind? It has to start in the mind first. How do we move this generation’s focus from sex, drugs, and selfish material gain to becoming who God truly created them to be?

RTL: I think the key is in understanding that within a larger context, the Hip Hop culture is doing that, but Pop culture is doing that. National culture is doing that. Hip Hop culture, in a lot of ways, is reflecting National culture, or the culture of America. America is materialistic. America is greedy. America is violent. America is sexist. Now, am I saying that this should continue? No. It’s some garbage, it’s some cut. I don’t justify it, but that’s not all the hip hop culture is. Because American capitalism and corporate structure has so shaped what we’re able to see on TV and hear on the radio as being authored as Hip Hop, you have all kinds of cats doing all kinds of great stuff who can’t get a deal because record execs are saying if it’s not shaking and if it’s not shooting then it’s not going to get played. And for me there is a responsibility of the church to help assist those in the culture, who represent the best of the culture. See because what happens is we say, ’oh Lord Jesus look at the booty shaking, look at the violence,’ the older generations say that, but nobody shapes practical methods to support rap artists who are trying to do it right. You’ve got cats who are struggling and they have good music, conscious music, and can’t get a deal. Or, when they get a deal, nobody will buy their stuff. You’ve got Christian Hip Hop artists that can’t rub two nickels together, and the church won’t even support them. So the issue isn’t necessarily just Hip Hop. The issue is how do we put our money where our mouth is? Also, putting it within the context of America, for me the larger question is, how do we change the mindset of a nation that’s corrupt? How do you change the mindset of a nation that, at its core, utilizes sexual images to sell everything? How do you change a nation that at its core is unjust to the least of these? How do you change a nation that at its core is all about greed and materialism and is willing to go fight wars just to keep money its pockets? How do you talk to youngins’ in the hood about violence when they understand that folk in the government talk about weapons of mass destruction and there are no weapons there, and that it’s all game? There’s a need to be able to shape that kind of faith in a larger context. Then you can be prophetic while addressing the issues at the local level and saying, look you’ve got to get your mind right because here’s the game, and here’s what it’s setting up, and here’s what you’re perpetuating.

UKM: How do we motivate Black America to want and get better schools in our communities, to be free from poverty and its stagnating mentality, living paycheck to paycheck, with bad credit, drug and alcohol addiction, and broken families? What is it that we’re missing? What are we lacking as a people?

RTL: I think we need to show folk that’s possible, and give folk a vision to catch, a picture of a world that they really haven’t seen. It’s hard for me to sit and talk about a world without poverty when poverty is all I’ve ever known. But, if someone can come to me and share about a world that’s different than all I’ve known, and help facilitate and teach and train, and help me to be able to see that there is a way out, and what is the way out, then I think it’s highly possible to do. And then there’s a need for us to be able to shape leadership in such a way that our leadership’s fundamental goal is to see our communities transform instead of the fundamental goal being for them to get a big name and have their pockets paid. The fundamental goal has got to be to see communities transform. The other piece is that, in order for us as a people to be able to flip it, we have to understand ourselves within the world’s context. And that’s going to mean we have to understand ourselves in relationship to other people, and we have to see their struggles with our struggles. Hurricane Katrina challenged me. When I took a group from Ebenezer [African Methodist Episcopal Church in Fort Washington, MD] down to the Gulf, we hooked up with all these other people down there volunteering. Some had driven from California, from Minnesota – some had hitchhiked to get down there. But these were white people that white people don’t even talk to. They gave up whatever they had to get there to work and what caused me challenge was . . . (pausing) I came down to the Gulf because black people were hurting. They came down because people were hurting. And so in that, it caused me to realize that even in my trying to do good; I had limited my perspective. So I had to see the connection just about doing right by humanity. That’s what really got Dr. King killed. He understood that the issue that needed to be fought was poverty, economic injustice. And he wasn’t just talking about black people; he was talking about people in general. When you understand that, it reshapes how you organize. Now I see other people of color as my allies. If the truth be told, there are poor white people in America. Poverty is affecting all kinds of folk. Now, I understand that I need to rebuild my community, but I am saying that when I understand that, I should be organizing differently. It reshapes my view. I see not just the United States, I see the world. And if we start pumping that, we’ll really have our strength, because Hip Hop is global. You can go anywhere in the world right now and find somebody rocking a Hip Hop song, wearing clothes that look like they’re from around here. When we understand that, then we can understand our level of influence. That was the strength of say King and Malcolm [X] and that’s why the Civil Rights Movement is so well regarded in America. What we did here impacted what happened in South Africa, it impacted what happened in South America; it impacted what happened throughout the continent of Africa. That’s why you could see folks throughout European countries singing ‘we shall overcome.’ Those folks were singing ‘we shall overcome’ because our struggle impacted how they saw themselves in fighting against oppression. And that’s what we really have to do. And Hip Hop, I think, is an instrument. This generation is an instrument because we have such a global influence. The challenge is we’ve allowed corporate America to dictate the vision of Hip Hop culture that goes out to the world. The challenge is utilizing our influence for the reason that God has for it, and allowing Godly influence to be a part of it. People of character, people who want to see not just themselves become large, but want to see justice really prevail. And that’s what’s going to be important, and that is my prayer. That’s my prayer when I see a lot of the cats who are really doing good work nationally and internationally, and at least at this point in the game, their hearts are in it just to do it. Their hearts are in it to do it for the community. Their hearts are in it because they want to see large change – communities transform. The issue though is going to be us holding each other accountable and shaping that accountability so that we keep that fervor and not become corrupted by the greed and the power.

What else is Rev. Lee up to in addition to building a new church?

He’s taking it world-wide with The Hip Hope Network, a twenty-four hour, online video streaming channel, where you can view Sunday services, Bible studies and other activities from Community of Hope, as well as Christian entertainment, social forums and various independent programming. Get it in real time and on-demand, and the site also features MP3 downloads.

What are Rev. Lee’s goals in ministry and as a New Black Leader?

“For me – there’s a need for me to be connected to the local community – really just on the ground, on the grind, really working hard in a local context; transforming community, empowering people to be agents of transformation, empowering people to make their numbers jump, empowering the next generation of leaders. I believe that Community of Hope shall be a place where regular folk come into contact with an extraordinary God and do extraordinary things. And so that’s my prayer, to be able to really have a place where we’re not just growing spiritually, but we think and strategize and organize around the issues that affect our people, and have an impact globally. And so that’s the vision, to empower folks at that level, so we can have an impact globally. That’s what’s up.”

Rev. Tony Lee

You can check out Rev. Lee and the Community of Hope AME Church at www.thehopenation.com. You can also view the Hip Hope Network through the Hope Nation website, or by logging onto www.hiphopenetwork.tv.